If, a century ago, the keenest talking heads of the age (who would that have been, I wonder: Chesterton, Shaw, Belloc, Jo Chamberlain?) had battled it out amongst themselves about the future of infrastructure and energy, what would that debate have looked like? If, say, they had all agreed on the importance of rolling out a massive, global plan stretching decades into the future, based on endlessly argued-over scientific ‘facts’ which themselves disguised a lot of underlying political, cultural and social assumptions about the way the world is – what would they have been arguing over? Precisely how many ostlers would be needed by 1950? The importance of a large-scale dung clean-up operation on the streets of major cities? A research and development programme to investigate the plausibility of time machines? Sourcing the funding for an urgent nationwide rollout of dirigible charging stations?
Thoughts like these have been drifting into my head, then drifting out again, for a few weeks now, as I have observed the predictably bitter squabble going on in the green community – and, inevitably therefore, in the media – about Fukushima and the future of nuclear power. I am, it is safe to say, no scientist (something I have in common with most of those who hold strong opinions on nuclear power, by the looks of it) and I have no real idea what is currently going on in those Japanese reactors (ditto) I don’t know, either, whether the worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl will turn out to be the high-water mark of the global nuclear industry – something which would apparently be a triumph or a catastrophe depending on which pundit you’re listening to.
But I do wonder whether it is a high water mark for the greens. For a long time now, the green movement has been in retreat, and that retreat now seems in danger of turning into a rout. From a standing start four decades ago, the greens have seen some of their ideas (mainly the ones about using ‘our resources’ ’sustainably’) spread widely and sometimes deeply into popular and political culture. They have also, inevitably, seen those ideas watered down. I have covered this subject before and don’t intend to do so again here in any detail, but it might be worth reflecting a little bit on the bind the greens are now in.
We all know by now how big, and unstoppable, the global industrial machine is. We know that the global economy relies on resource consumption like a fish relies on gills, and we know that when this imperative is combined with accelerating technological change, a rising human population, the virus-like spread of consumer values, a mass extinction event, a changing climate and resource scarcity in a number of (admittedly contested) areas, the results do not look pretty. When we add all this up we also know, if we are being honest with ourselves, that we are not going to be able to prevent the crash into the buffers – which has already begun – from getting very messy indeed.
At this point, things get complicated. If we are highly politicised people, whose values and self-image are predicated on being ‘activists’ in the cause of preventing such terrible things, we may simply not allow ourselves to be honest about this. This is understandable and I know what it feels like, having been there myself for quite a long time. At this point, we have to lie to ourselves – to go into denial for the sake of our psychological health. So we might pretend to ourselves that ‘one more push’ (ie, doing the same thing yet again) may do the trick. We might tell ourselves that The People are ignorant of The Facts and that if we enlighten them they will Act. We might believe that the right treaty has yet to be signed, or the right technology yet to be found, or that the problem is not too much growth and science and progress but too little of it. Or we might choose to believe that a Movement is needed to expose the lies being told to The People by the Bad Men In Power who are preventing The People from doing the rising up they will all want to do when they learn The Truth.
Whatever the story, it will be a story based on the need for an external event or events, which can only be brought into being by way of more ‘action.’ This way, we can tell ourselves that the only thing to do is to keep on keeping on. After all, the alternative must be ‘giving up’ and watching the world burn.
This is where the greens are today. It is a hard place to be, and it is a place made even more fearsome by the single-minded obsession with climate change that has gripped environmentalism over the last decade. The fear of carbon has trumped all other issues – so much so that is now common in popular culture to see ‘green’ ideas represented simply as arguments about carbon emissions. Everything else has been stripped away. All that matters now is cutting carbon.
It is in this context that the nuclear rumpus has occurred. The Japanese earthquake and tsunami ripped apart a nuclear power plant, and with barely a day’s grace the pundits were swooping on the place. Most of them seemed to see this tragedy simply as an opportunity to forcefully restate their existing positions on nuclear power – It will kill us! It will save us! – even as the fuel rods were still melting. Some people – like our very own George Monbiot – used Fukushima not to restate their case but to change their mind. But whatever the argument, the growing – and understandable – sense of desperation was the same.
The greens are in a corner. If you believe that climate change will wreck the Earth and that the only way to prevent that from happening is to ‘reduce emissions’ in a fantastically short time period, then you are in a very perilous place. It’s not that this argument is necessarily wrong – it probably isn’t, though the lack of certainty is always worth highlighting. But it is so obviously impossible to do what it is claimed Must Be Done to stop it that futility or despair can end up being the only places to turn.
My feeling is that the green movement has torpedoed itself with numbers. Its single-minded obsession with climate change, and its insistence on seeing this as an engineering challenge which must be overcome with technological solutions guided by the neutral gaze of Science, has forced it into a ghetto from which it may never escape. Most greens in the mainstream now spend their time arguing about whether they prefer windfarms to wave machines or nuclear power to carbon sequestration. They offer up remarkably confident predictions of what will happen if we do or don’t do this or that, all based on mind-numbing numbers cherry-picked from this or that ’study’ as if the world were a giant spreadsheet which only needs to be balanced correctly.
In this, the mainstream green movement is only reflecting and feeding upon wider societal trends. We live in a remarkably literal-minded and reductionistic culture. I’m struck listening to or reading the news, for example, by how nothing is seen to be ‘real’ unless it is sanctioned by the priesthoods of either Science or Business, and preferably both. A culture in which Richard Dawkins and Ian McEwan are seen as intellectual guiding lights is the kind of culture which produces an environmental movement made up of frustrated, passionate people who feel obliged to act like speak-your-weight machines just to be heard.
If we want to move beyond the futility and despair imposed by the cold narrowness of this worldview, where do we look? What is missing here is stories, and an understanding of the importance of stories in getting to the bottom of what is really going on. Because at root, this whole squabble between worldviews is not about numbers at all – it is about narratives.
The fight between the pro-nukers and the anti-nukers, for example, is actually quite archetypal. Though both sides pretend to be informed by ’science’ and ‘facts’ both are actually informed primarily by prejudice. Whether you like nuclear power or not is a reflection of the kind of worldview you have: whether you are a confident embracer of the Western model of progress or whether it frightens or concerns you; whether you trust science or tend not to; whether you are cautious or reckless; whether you are ‘progressive’ or ‘conservative.’ On issues ranging from GM crops to capitalism, these are the underlying stories that actually inform the green debate. That they are then supported by a clutch of cherry-picked facts – easy to come by, after all, in the age of Wikipedia – is a footnote to what’s really going on.
The mess that the greens have got themselves into is at least partly due to them paying more attention to numbers than narratives. Green political thought, in its early incarnations, was radical and challenging. It was about the stories we tell ourselves about the world: stories about progress, industry, the conquest of nature and many of the other narratives that the Dark Mountain Project exists to highlight. The early greens challenged these stories with others, drawn in some cases from ecotopian imaginings about better future but in many more cases from the stories of existing non-industrial societies: the Kalahari Bushmen, for example, who lived for 35,000 years in a culture which managed to survive in remarkable harmony with non-human nature even with lions prowling outside the huts of its people (a story touched on in Dark Mountain book two). You want ’sustainability’? The Bushmen were the longest-recorded human culture. They were genuinely sustainable for longer than we can imagine. Industrial society got them in the end, like it gets everything, but the example remains.
This kind of thing, of course, was what made it so easy to attack the greens as Romantics and primitivists (which some of them were and still are.) In response, environmentalists decided to get ’serious’, so as to be listened to in the corridors of power. They started wearing suits and pretending to be economists and speaking the language of business and science. It was a perfectly sensible approach in many ways, and it yielded many clear dividends.
But it may also have doomed the greens in the longer term, for now they find themselves caught in a narrative of other peoples’ making. Almost by accident, mainstream green politics and argument threw out most of the alternative stories it grew up with, like a child throws out his old teddy bears: that was then, but this is now, and now we are Grown Ups. This approach has left environmentalism in a position where its advocates now find themselves unable to do anything but argue about which machines they would prefer to use to power an ever-growing industrial economy. Any sally outside this tightly-controlled ghetto sees them rained with bullets from all sides: accused of wishful thinking if they talk about zero-growth economies; called snobs and hypocrites if they criticise consumerism; attacked as terrorists if they engage in direct action to protect wild nature; called naive idealists if they ask whether planning for a future much like the present is really such a good idea.
This has always been the case, of course, but now the greens are being heard in the corridors of power the stakes are much higher. A global anti-green movement now exists and is growing in power and influence. Meanwhile, the greens have been taken over from within by smooth-tongued purveyors of business-as-usual without the carbon. The message is clear: stick to arguing about the machines, and you’re welcome to play with the big boys. But drop all the other nonsense, alright? This, demonstrably, is how radical movements die.
I’m currently trying to get my head around exactly how the current economic crisis has happened, and in the cause of doing so I am reading John Lanchester’s book Whoops! which explains it in terms that even people like me can grasp. This evening I was reading Lanchester’s description of how banks have changed in the last few decades. When his father worked in banking it was a staid business populated mostly by non-graduates. Today, if you don’t have a first-class maths degree from Oxbridge you’ll find it hard making it in the industry. This, Lanchester suggests, is part of the problem: banking has become so specialist, so complex, that most people – including many bankers - simply don’t understand how it works.
The maths geeks who now run the futures and options operations in banking are known as ‘quants’. One MBA student quoted in the book reported that on his course the students were required to identify themselves as either ‘quants’ or ‘poets’. That is: did they do numbers, or did they do words?
These days, the green movement is being taken over by quants. It’s easy to see why. Quants present easy, numbered, labelled arguments which may sometimes require a maths degree but don’t require a rewiring of your worldview or an examination of your narrative. A green quant might be telling you to change your lightbulbs or come out on the streets in favour of a nuclear power plant or a windfarm, but he’s not asking you to examine your values or your society’s underlying mythology. And if you talk to him about this, it is very easy indeed for him to laugh and tell you loftily that this is all very nice but is hardly comparable to the serious business of saving the world one emission at a time.
This is the context in which the nuclear squabble is being played out. Here, for example, is an article which claims that renewable energy can’t meet ‘our energy needs’? But our needs for what? Coffee machines and fast broadband, or clean drinking water and living ecosystems? Middle class life in a consumer democracy or a liveable human existence? Or do we now think these are the same thing? If you really want to see where a green quant is coming from, simply catch him in the middle of one of these arguments and ask him (and it usually is a him) to define ‘need’. Then watch the narrative spooling out like film from a broken cannister.
As a poet, of course, I have a vested interest in objecting to this, and I often do, but I don’t do it without empathy or without some doubt. I know why it has happened. This, after all, is an approach designed to produce clear and concrete results – something which is undeniably useful in an age of ecocide. But what narrative framework are the results being produced in? Because it’s that framework, in the end which will determine where those results take us.
Too many green quants, then, and not enough green poets? I think so. Or rather, I think that the poets have been cowed into silence by the dominance and urgency of the quants’ narrative. How to reassert the importance of stories, then, is perhaps a key question now. Green poets might perhaps start by observing that worlds are not ’saved’ by the same stories that are killing them. They might want to observe that saving worlds is an impossible business in the first place, and that attempting to do so is likely to lead to some very dark places. Or they might try and explore what it is about how we see ourselves which reduces us to this, time and time again – arguing about machines rather than wondering what those machines give us and what they take away.
The friction between the quant and the poet could be represented by focusing on a few bickering individuals, or by trying to divide the greens up into Two Cultures. But it could also, perhaps more honestly and productively, be represented as a tension that is present within all. None of us is wholly, or even primarily, rational and analytical, and none of us is quite devoid of poetry either, though it is sometimes hard to find it. These divisions are themselves stories that we, in this particular culture, tell ourselves about how humans work. The quants and the poets are both needed, but I would argue that, right now, the poets ought to take the lead – if indeed that is ever something that poets are capable of. We have no shortage of arguments about numbers and machines, but we do have a great shortage of workable stories. That is to say: stories that don’t just have happy endings, but have convincing plots as well.




A. Curtis latest, preview :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/04/_in_order_to_see.html
Previous works :
http://fixingtheeconomists.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/happy-christmas/
[...] co-founded the Dark Mountain project as a means of exploring this problem. His latest essay The Quants and the Poets is a compelling and beautifully-written account of the way in which “the green movement has [...]
[...] [...]
[...] co-founded the Dark Mountain project as a means of exploring this problem. His latest essay The Quants and the Poets is a compelling and beautifully-written account of the way in which “the green movement has [...]
europe, rotors massed
off the coast. elsewhere
destruction sweeps the land
like the sun going in
There is a better way. it is spelled out by the Center for the Steady State Economy (CASSE) it could become your way.
You can read more about CASSE in my book
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51677675/Replacing-endless-econ-growth
[...] co-founded the Dark Mountain project as a means of exploring this problem. His latest essay The Quants and the Poets is a compelling and beautifully-written account of the way in which “the green movement has [...]
A superb essay. Thanks.
I’m reminded of a theme in Sam Harris’s new book _The Moral Landscape_ in which he examines Hume’s famous claim that you can’t derive an ought from an is.
Hume is right in many cases, but it is also true to say that if you want to know what you ought to do in a situation, you almost always need to know the facts of the case first. Without the “is” there can only be a number of possible “oughts”. Surely this applies to the “green problem”?
It will be the very wealthy that drive the final nails into the coffin of Mother Earth…
The Poets will win when it is too late – when the great masses of humanity reject all the trappings of modern-mega-industrial society and Dawkins-like scientific materialism (i.e., the myth that “that’s all there is”) because it (at some point in the future) it, as a guiding philosophy, will so obviously be a failure at providing the conditions for continuing life.
Paul is so right to say that we need a way of comparing narratives. And the idea that there will always be multiple narratives ( rather than a search for one “true” story ) is essential. The weaving together of different narrative structures and the identification of points of real dispute between them is the task of dialectical epistemology. It transcends what Aubrey Meyer (in this same thread) called “false narratives” by finding a better idea inherent in the polarity. A 60s book called Paradigms and Fairy Tales explained the epistemology behind this and the author has recently brought it up to date with one which examines all the ideas around quants v poets and manages a halfway cheerful conclusion without conceding an inch to capitalist consumerism. The latest one is called “Never Point at a Rainbow: An Introduction to Radical Logic”
[...] cites Paul Kingsnorth’s posting titled “The quants and the poets”. Quants are numbers/facts people and poets are people that examine societies values and [...]
“But it could also, perhaps more honestly and productively, be represented as a tension that is present within all”
I had thoughts similar…… That between our heads is a …space which does not understand …the other self …About
our attempt of control of reality (Quants)
and observing loss of control of reality (poets)
And a discussion , about the difference between need and want ….
Being with your desire is valuable , rushing through it , as consumers do , wastes part of the experience.
I have spent quote a lot of time recently arguing (bickering?) on somewhat similar lines with various acquaintances and colleagues in the green movement. I say somewhat, because my discussions have not been about numbers as such – rather, they have been on the failure of the modern green movement, in the US in particular, to present a coherent narrative. It feels as if the movement has become ideologically paralysed by market research – notably, it seems that Americans love farmers, and therefore American environmentalists must use messages that make it sound like they love farmers too. This is particularly intriguing in cases where the farmers are the largest part of the problem that is trying to be addressed – so afraid of offending the majority have we become, that the green narrative has started being designed to actively perpetuate the narratives that are the greatest barrier.
We do (Paul and I) differ on the details of the issue though, perhaps an inevitable consequence of his status as ‘poet’ and my status as ‘quant’. Paul lumps the narratives of business and science together. If you don’t much care for numbers, they might well seem part of the same problem, but I think that this type of conflation of science and business (normally from the other side) is actually central to the problem. An analysis that tells us whether something actually works, be it a vaccine reducing infection rates, or a wind turbine producing more energy than is use to make it, or a catalytic converter reducing vehicle emissions, is a scientific analysis. If it is a good scientific analysis, then it gives us useful information – use the vaccine unless we want to be infected, don’t bother with these wind turbines, fit catalytic converters on our cars. These are relatively objective questions, with objective answers. If a scientific analysis of this sort includes assumptions, they are more or less philosophically neutral – air can be treated as an ideal fluid, most people react in a comparable way to vaccines, vehicular emissions have common characteristics and solutions.
A business analysis on the other hand, in which category I shall unceremoniously include economic analysis, comes with a set of assumptions that are deeply philosophically loaded – welfare can be well described in dollars, free markets are populated by perfectly informed consumers, individuals will act in their financial interest. Economics has been accorded a falsely scientific status. Consider the debate between the Keynesians and monetarists – crisis after crisis the same debates are rehashed. There are no experiments to confirm or deny these ideas – there is even an economic theory that says (more or less) that if a nation acts as if an economic theory were true, this will be enough to render it false. Adam’s Curtis’ Pandora’s box is pertinent on these issues.
To close in defense of the quants, I will note a passage that struck me in Paul’s thoughts: “This, after all, is an approach designed to produce clear and concrete results – something which is undeniably useful in an age of ecocide. But what narrative framework are the results being produced in?”. Paul claims that we have too many quants and not enough poets, but implicit in his argument is the fact that the quants are not making the running, we are not in thrall to their narrative. Look at modern US Republicanism. They will certainly fall back on quantification when it suits them, but they’re are more than happy to let their poetry soar when the evidence is weak. Quantification is a fig leaf worn for a poetry of greed, economics is the servant of that poetry. By all means, I agree that the environmental movement needs to challenge that poetry, but let us not pretend that it is a poetry born solely out of science.
I refer the group to the constantly engaging work of Ben Goldacre, and at risk of misrepresenting him I would say that his ongoing blogathon against ‘Bad Science’ places a correct emphasis that the problem with numbers is their misuse, not their use, and that the answer to this is not to reject them but to take them to the people. So be careful what you wish for – it might be that far from moving us forward, a narrative that is explicitly against using your numbers wisely is a narrative that plays into supply-side economics, and climate change and AIDS denial, and trickle down theory – because, for better or worse, we have invented a world in which sometimes it requires numbers to understand what’s going on at all.
We have a society that has now traded the seven sins and seven virtues for Ann Rynd and “greed is good” (or God) and “winning is the only thing”. Scientific materialism preaches that our lives are randomly generated movements of particles from the big meaningless bang, which itself was some fluke from a vast number of randomly generated universes. Trillions of monkeys typing, metaphorically speaking, really did produce Shakespear’s plays.
How will this kind of society respond to environemental destruction?
It can’t really value anything properly with its deep beliefs such as they are. Above are the real myths that operate in our society. Can you change them?
The circumstance of human consumption is relatively simple: we take more than we put back for our own future. Regardless of the technology du jour which happens to be discussed, the truth is that the usefulness of something is temporal: value is only valuable if it is useful in the future. The Greens tend to talk about activities or technology (from plowing the soil to nuclear power) from the standpoint of some kind of ’steady-state’ economics: as though many of the activities of humans don’t need to be evaluated as long as they can keep doing them for some undetermined time frame. The idea that if something will last until 2090, it is better than something which only lasts until 2020. This is a distraction from the root of the problem. Humans have to stop thinking in terms of ‘what we can get’ and BEHAVE (it doesn’t matter what we believe) in terms of what we are giving to the universe’s (and hence, our) future. There are VERY few things that either ‘greens’ or ‘consumers’ can say fit this category. This ‘net usefulness’ (our quantitative generosity vs. our consumption), WILL determine our fate, as it has for every species that ever evolved. Its first step is reduction of consumption, so that we don’t have to create as much future usefulness to overcome our consumption. It is the basic simplicity of living things that they have to overcome entropy by doing MORE than just minimizing consumption if they want to survive the random threats of the universe. Humans did it once or we wouldn’t exist now. We just got too imaginative and consumptive.
Great post Paul and I’m so sorry I didn’t make it to your recital in Edinburgh last month. I totally agree that the green movement has been trying to have its cake & eat it. For years I’ve been up against arguments over how to replace fossil fuels without changing society too much. While we need poets, we also need some quants who understand the laws of thermodynamics (well, the first two at least).
Anyway, don’t give up!
Mandy
What a lot of waffle.
Quite simply, it is too late to prevent the extinction of Earthlife. As God is Life, you can decide for yourself whether God is incompetent or is unwilling to continue supporting those greedy Religious who are demanding eternal Life in some heaven in the sky, so seeks God’s own TERMINUS.
The only place where eternal Life will be found is Hell. As the translated welsh poet said “Give me Man’s Hell not God’s remorseless Heaven”.
“If you really want to see where a green quant is coming from, simply catch him in the middle of one of these arguments and ask him (and it usually is a him) to define ‘need’. Then watch the narrative spooling out like film from a broken cannister.”
LMAO!! This is SO true. Not just with green quants (though, I understand the emphasis because they are SUPPOSED to know), but with anyone, anywhere. Health insurance? We don’t need health insurance; we need healthy people. Government? Trade? Money? It all comes down to the realities of being useful to our own (and thus, the planet’s) future. If all of our ‘values’ are based on consuming the future, WTF do we expect will happen? Most Christians simply think in terms of consuming Heaven when they get there, not showing up ready to do some work.
Great post. However, quants and poets need not be mutually exclusive. There is actually a deeper story behind numbers, which goes to the mythological root of how this world is constructed and how we humans use and abuse the gift of consciousness to either align ourselves with natural law, or flaunt it with dire consequences. This deeper understanding of numbers was known to Pythagoras and his followers, and largely lost to us today. I’ve attempted to reconstruct these ideas in a modern context in a new book called Astrology and the Archetypal Power of Numbers, Part One: A Contemporary Reformulation of Pythagorean Number Theory – written for non-astrologers. The book weaves together personal experience with mythology, spiritual psychology, social commentary, environmental politics, history, and yes, astrology (not your daily horoscope, but a deeply sophisticated language rooted in archetypal stories) to show how innate intelligence is built into the very fabric of the manifest world, and us as well. I argue that our survival depends upon our capacity to access this intelligence and make it the primary basis for our individual and collective decisions. Hard core quants may dismiss the arguments as beside the point, but poets and quants a bit uneasy with the qualitative dimension of numbers may find some answers here. See my web site – http://www.ancient-tower-press.com for more details. Yes, this is an advertisement, but one that is quite relevant to the discussion here of numbers vs. stories.
As a green quant who’d love more poetry,I wonder about two kinds of climate stories:
Are not many stories to be told about climate change initially about impacts – and adaptation? Here in South Africa, Leonie Joubert is documenting stories about ‘people in a changing climate’
Do we not need stories about reducing emissions – whether one at a time, or many at once?
I hope you start telling the latter stories at the DM project
There is a terrific posting at commondreams.org that says it very well indeed: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/05/17-6 -
“Leaving the Church of Free Market Miracles” – and the author is certainly is a poet for the times: Phil Rockstroh — see http://philrockstroh.com/
In a parallel to your post, Richard Wilbur addressed the same dilemma for arms control advocates in his poem “Advice to a Prophet”, available at this link: http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15485
[...] This is the vital question that Greer addresses in this post, and which is also at issue in a much-linked post on poets and quants at the Dark Mountain Project. Tough, tough question. Since I’m not sure what to say straightaway, I want to cover some [...]