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	<title>Comments for The Dark Mountain Project</title>
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	<description>A new literary movement for a time of global disruption</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:38:28 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1874</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1874</guid>
		<description>Agreed, I have just picked it up for the first time after 33 years and can&#039;t believe I waited so long.  Beautiful and weird.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, I have just picked it up for the first time after 33 years and can&#8217;t believe I waited so long.  Beautiful and weird.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Paul Kingsnorth</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1873</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Kingsnorth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1873</guid>
		<description>Gavin - thanks for that. Perhaps he should be on the list. The Wind in the Willows can be curiously subversive, and &#039;The Piper at the Gates of Dawn&#039; is the single weirdest chapter in any childrens&#039; book ever. Deep animism in Edwardian England! Badgers in tweed jackets being led astray by the wild god of the woods. Marvellous stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin &#8211; thanks for that. Perhaps he should be on the list. The Wind in the Willows can be curiously subversive, and &#8216;The Piper at the Gates of Dawn&#8217; is the single weirdest chapter in any childrens&#8217; book ever. Deep animism in Edwardian England! Badgers in tweed jackets being led astray by the wild god of the woods. Marvellous stuff.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1872</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1872</guid>
		<description>Funny that you begin with Rome and impermanence.  I was just reading a passage in The Wind in the Willows in which Badger explains that his underground home used to be part of a Roman city.

***

&quot;Here, where we are standing, they lived, and walked, and talked, and slept, and carried on their business. Here they stabled their horses and feasted, and from here they rode out to fight or to drove out to trade. They were a powerful people, and rich, and great builders. They built to last, for they thought their city would last forever.&quot;

&quot;But what has become of them all?&quot; asked the Mole.

&quot;Who can tell?&quot; said the Badger. &quot;People come, they stay for a while, they flourish, they build - and they go. It is their way. But we remain. There were badgers here, I&#039;ve been told, long before that same city ever came to be. And now there are badgers here again. We are an enduring lot, and we may move out for a time, but we wait, and are patient, and back we come. And so it will ever be.&quot;

&quot;Well, and when they went at last, those people?&quot;

&quot;When they went, the strong winds and persistent rains took the matter in hand, patiently, ceaselessly, year after year. Perhaps we badgers too, in our small way, helped a little - who knows?  It was all down, down, down, gradually - ruin and levelling and disappearance.  Then it was all up, up, up, gradually, as seeds grew to saplings, and saplings to forest trees, and bramble and fern came creeping in to help.&quot;

***

Kenneth Grahame for the Uncivilised reading list!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny that you begin with Rome and impermanence.  I was just reading a passage in The Wind in the Willows in which Badger explains that his underground home used to be part of a Roman city.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>&#8220;Here, where we are standing, they lived, and walked, and talked, and slept, and carried on their business. Here they stabled their horses and feasted, and from here they rode out to fight or to drove out to trade. They were a powerful people, and rich, and great builders. They built to last, for they thought their city would last forever.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;But what has become of them all?&#8221; asked the Mole.</p>
<p>&#8220;Who can tell?&#8221; said the Badger. &#8220;People come, they stay for a while, they flourish, they build &#8211; and they go. It is their way. But we remain. There were badgers here, I&#8217;ve been told, long before that same city ever came to be. And now there are badgers here again. We are an enduring lot, and we may move out for a time, but we wait, and are patient, and back we come. And so it will ever be.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, and when they went at last, those people?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;When they went, the strong winds and persistent rains took the matter in hand, patiently, ceaselessly, year after year. Perhaps we badgers too, in our small way, helped a little &#8211; who knows?  It was all down, down, down, gradually &#8211; ruin and levelling and disappearance.  Then it was all up, up, up, gradually, as seeds grew to saplings, and saplings to forest trees, and bramble and fern came creeping in to help.&#8221;</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>Kenneth Grahame for the Uncivilised reading list!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Rupert Cathles</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1870</link>
		<dc:creator>Rupert Cathles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1870</guid>
		<description>Does not &#039;uncivilised&#039; mean wild?
From the point of view of wild life, all civilised culture, our urban world, is destructive. If wilderness is best, then civilisation is a curse and its progress has been a descent. This is as our ancestors saw it, from an original golden Age to Silver, Bronze, Iron, to Apocalypse, the end of the world.
From the summit of the Mountain there are great views, the vision of a new world which is neither uncivilised nor destructive, a view all the way to a future global Golden Age.
To reach the summit there is first an abyss to cross. The abyss is this: At the very time when we, clever naked apes, have discovered the scale of the universe and our possible future in it - almost limitless - we threaten ourselves with extinction! Deep this abyss: At very great cost humanity has climbed the peaks of cultural achievement, and all will be lost if we fall, making the struggles and sufferings of our ancestors futile and to no purpose. We not only risk becoming inhumanly barbaric but also are at risk of becoming completely soulless, mechanical, mere automata in a robotic world - apes in spacesuits.
It is not possible to exaggerate the depth of this abyss. It is the Abyss of Despair. Only the fear of despair makes you seriously consider, realise the seriousness of the danger. Stare into the abyss and only then ask what really matters. What cultural inheritances are really worth keeping? What is the best of human culture worth saving? Facing despair, only then can anyone seriously see what matters, what is of lasting value, both wild and cultivated.
Then, look up - There is an abyss to cross and a mountain to climb. And it can be crossed and it can be climbed, one step at a time, one person at a time.

This, from one who has seen the view from the summit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does not &#8216;uncivilised&#8217; mean wild?<br />
From the point of view of wild life, all civilised culture, our urban world, is destructive. If wilderness is best, then civilisation is a curse and its progress has been a descent. This is as our ancestors saw it, from an original golden Age to Silver, Bronze, Iron, to Apocalypse, the end of the world.<br />
From the summit of the Mountain there are great views, the vision of a new world which is neither uncivilised nor destructive, a view all the way to a future global Golden Age.<br />
To reach the summit there is first an abyss to cross. The abyss is this: At the very time when we, clever naked apes, have discovered the scale of the universe and our possible future in it &#8211; almost limitless &#8211; we threaten ourselves with extinction! Deep this abyss: At very great cost humanity has climbed the peaks of cultural achievement, and all will be lost if we fall, making the struggles and sufferings of our ancestors futile and to no purpose. We not only risk becoming inhumanly barbaric but also are at risk of becoming completely soulless, mechanical, mere automata in a robotic world &#8211; apes in spacesuits.<br />
It is not possible to exaggerate the depth of this abyss. It is the Abyss of Despair. Only the fear of despair makes you seriously consider, realise the seriousness of the danger. Stare into the abyss and only then ask what really matters. What cultural inheritances are really worth keeping? What is the best of human culture worth saving? Facing despair, only then can anyone seriously see what matters, what is of lasting value, both wild and cultivated.<br />
Then, look up &#8211; There is an abyss to cross and a mountain to climb. And it can be crossed and it can be climbed, one step at a time, one person at a time.</p>
<p>This, from one who has seen the view from the summit.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1869</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1869</guid>
		<description>Mark, 

I entirely agree with your post - I have also thought this way for a while now. To borrow from William Blake, we are currently far too single-visioned; we need to work towards a more truthful, four-fold vision of reality instead.

And I&#039;m not a religious fundamentalist either, or an enemy of reason, whatever that means, but I do think that as a society we need to pay serious and immediate attention to what could be called &#039;spirit&#039;.

In this, I have been heavily influenced by Theodore Roszak among others, especially The Voice of the Earth and Where the Wasteland Ends. I&#039;d like to discuss either of those with anyone else out there. (Though I admit now I&#039;m highly biased - I think Roszak is a brilliant intellectual shot in the arm.)

Elizabeth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, </p>
<p>I entirely agree with your post &#8211; I have also thought this way for a while now. To borrow from William Blake, we are currently far too single-visioned; we need to work towards a more truthful, four-fold vision of reality instead.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m not a religious fundamentalist either, or an enemy of reason, whatever that means, but I do think that as a society we need to pay serious and immediate attention to what could be called &#8217;spirit&#8217;.</p>
<p>In this, I have been heavily influenced by Theodore Roszak among others, especially The Voice of the Earth and Where the Wasteland Ends. I&#8217;d like to discuss either of those with anyone else out there. (Though I admit now I&#8217;m highly biased &#8211; I think Roszak is a brilliant intellectual shot in the arm.)</p>
<p>Elizabeth</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Sophie McKeand</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1868</link>
		<dc:creator>Sophie McKeand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 11:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1868</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe that an individual can &#039;own&#039; ideas - nobody operates within a vacuum, the ownership of ideas is based on the capitalist model of selfish individualism rather than mutual co-operation... 

didn&#039;t Sartre say that anybody who claimed that their idea had never before been thought was either lying or it (the idea) must be completely rubbish... i like that take on it... so much so i wrote a poem about it:

thought 

this thought is mine is it not?
this thought that
I created, that I alone 
imagined

owned by this mind
is this thought,
rightfully mine
is this thought,
to be thought by 
no-other without my express permission,
as this thought is mine

a single consciousness attached
to no-one 
to no-thing 
created this thought,
detached from all other thoughts
ever thought 
is this mind, and 
this thought is mine is it not? 


i think that your own belief that we are coming to the end of this phase of civilisation explains perfectly how it is time to stop looking for &#039;the new&#039; and remember &#039;the old&#039; and by that i mean &#039;the really really old&#039; isn&#039;t that now so old it&#039;s the new &#039;new&#039;?
cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe that an individual can &#8216;own&#8217; ideas &#8211; nobody operates within a vacuum, the ownership of ideas is based on the capitalist model of selfish individualism rather than mutual co-operation&#8230; </p>
<p>didn&#8217;t Sartre say that anybody who claimed that their idea had never before been thought was either lying or it (the idea) must be completely rubbish&#8230; i like that take on it&#8230; so much so i wrote a poem about it:</p>
<p>thought </p>
<p>this thought is mine is it not?<br />
this thought that<br />
I created, that I alone<br />
imagined</p>
<p>owned by this mind<br />
is this thought,<br />
rightfully mine<br />
is this thought,<br />
to be thought by<br />
no-other without my express permission,<br />
as this thought is mine</p>
<p>a single consciousness attached<br />
to no-one<br />
to no-thing<br />
created this thought,<br />
detached from all other thoughts<br />
ever thought<br />
is this mind, and<br />
this thought is mine is it not? </p>
<p>i think that your own belief that we are coming to the end of this phase of civilisation explains perfectly how it is time to stop looking for &#8216;the new&#8217; and remember &#8216;the old&#8217; and by that i mean &#8216;the really really old&#8217; isn&#8217;t that now so old it&#8217;s the new &#8216;new&#8217;?<br />
cheers!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Mark Harrison</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1863</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 04:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1863</guid>
		<description>I agree that there&#039;s a cultural vacuum now, but I disagree that that is the cause of decadence (although it might be a symptom).  

I believe the real cause of decadence is spiritual decline.  No, I&#039;m not a religious fundamentalist or even (willingly) religious; I&#039;m speaking of a widespread unwillingness to search out deeper meaning, a disrespect for and disconnect from the natural world of which we are a part.

It is this very disconnect which has led to the forthcoming environmental apocalypse, and which allows the masses to pretend that either there is no problem, or that we can fix it.  

A spiritual wasteland leads to selfishness, greed, agression, brutality, and inhumanity.  If we are so heartless that we can brutalise our own species, what hope is there for hard-to-love species like vampire bats, great white sharks and dung beatles?

Civilisation is a hideous beast that we created because of our own fear of the natural world; it&#039;s the original sin.  Like so many fictional monsters, it is going to turn back and devour its makers.  Homo sapiens may or may not survive what&#039;s coming.  If we do, the surviving community will mostly comprise individuals and groups who foresaw the darkness and prepared themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that there&#8217;s a cultural vacuum now, but I disagree that that is the cause of decadence (although it might be a symptom).  </p>
<p>I believe the real cause of decadence is spiritual decline.  No, I&#8217;m not a religious fundamentalist or even (willingly) religious; I&#8217;m speaking of a widespread unwillingness to search out deeper meaning, a disrespect for and disconnect from the natural world of which we are a part.</p>
<p>It is this very disconnect which has led to the forthcoming environmental apocalypse, and which allows the masses to pretend that either there is no problem, or that we can fix it.  </p>
<p>A spiritual wasteland leads to selfishness, greed, agression, brutality, and inhumanity.  If we are so heartless that we can brutalise our own species, what hope is there for hard-to-love species like vampire bats, great white sharks and dung beatles?</p>
<p>Civilisation is a hideous beast that we created because of our own fear of the natural world; it&#8217;s the original sin.  Like so many fictional monsters, it is going to turn back and devour its makers.  Homo sapiens may or may not survive what&#8217;s coming.  If we do, the surviving community will mostly comprise individuals and groups who foresaw the darkness and prepared themselves.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Antonio Dias</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1859</link>
		<dc:creator>Antonio Dias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1859</guid>
		<description>Paul,

Even Hypochondriacs get sick eventually.  All times are decadent to some extent in some place. This being predominantly a global monoculture when we reached decadence it was all over.

Decadence proceeds from the feeling that everything&#039;s been done and all we can do is mourn that, copy it, or party like it&#039;s 1999.  The danger is when that attitude is carried forward after the crash that follows decadence like the Spring. If people continue to look backward this way it perpetuates a Dark Age.  A time when all people think they can do is look back in awe at the previous &quot;Golden Age,&quot; either the active time before the Decadence or even the decadence itself.

The door is always open, at the individual level at least, to break out of this.  Life does not have to be a game, and certainly not a game where the previous generations have already tied up all the great plays.  If we are willing to do what it takes to see our own moment as our defining time then we can lose our squeamishness and our expectation of ease, and get down to the un-cool and hard work of forging lives for ourselves and finding and developing meaning within that life.

We are choked today by institutions that perpetuate fossilized thinking and &quot;Decadent,&quot; &quot;Ancien Regime,&quot; &quot;Fin de Siecle&quot; Angst and Ennui.  Our Crises of Expertise and Leadership both stem from this dead weight of fossilized experience.  At this point much of what they run on has been chewed and re-chewed to the point no self-respecting cow would bother to chew it again!

The trouble with focusing on the decadence of one&#039;s time is that this effort displaces the real work of not looking back, either in awe or scorn, and facing our own moment squarely.  The poets of the Roman Decadence spent their time bemoaning – between binges.  Meanwhile the Celts and Hermans were not only sharpening their swords, but getting ready for an outpouring of cultural dynamism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>Even Hypochondriacs get sick eventually.  All times are decadent to some extent in some place. This being predominantly a global monoculture when we reached decadence it was all over.</p>
<p>Decadence proceeds from the feeling that everything&#8217;s been done and all we can do is mourn that, copy it, or party like it&#8217;s 1999.  The danger is when that attitude is carried forward after the crash that follows decadence like the Spring. If people continue to look backward this way it perpetuates a Dark Age.  A time when all people think they can do is look back in awe at the previous &#8220;Golden Age,&#8221; either the active time before the Decadence or even the decadence itself.</p>
<p>The door is always open, at the individual level at least, to break out of this.  Life does not have to be a game, and certainly not a game where the previous generations have already tied up all the great plays.  If we are willing to do what it takes to see our own moment as our defining time then we can lose our squeamishness and our expectation of ease, and get down to the un-cool and hard work of forging lives for ourselves and finding and developing meaning within that life.</p>
<p>We are choked today by institutions that perpetuate fossilized thinking and &#8220;Decadent,&#8221; &#8220;Ancien Regime,&#8221; &#8220;Fin de Siecle&#8221; Angst and Ennui.  Our Crises of Expertise and Leadership both stem from this dead weight of fossilized experience.  At this point much of what they run on has been chewed and re-chewed to the point no self-respecting cow would bother to chew it again!</p>
<p>The trouble with focusing on the decadence of one&#8217;s time is that this effort displaces the real work of not looking back, either in awe or scorn, and facing our own moment squarely.  The poets of the Roman Decadence spent their time bemoaning – between binges.  Meanwhile the Celts and Hermans were not only sharpening their swords, but getting ready for an outpouring of cultural dynamism.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Romans of the decadence by Lee Rowland</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/25/romans-of-the-decadence/comment-page-1/#comment-1857</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Rowland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=673#comment-1857</guid>
		<description>Paul, I totally agree. Yesterday I unexpectedly picked up a copy of Reality Hunger by David Shields, a book published last month. The laudatory comments from other artists and authors were quite unlike anything I&#039;d ever read for a book. It seemed, standing in the bookshop, that this was the best thing to be written in ages. I bought it and went home to read. It turned out that nearly the whole book was a collection of cleverly (actually, not that cleverly) disguised quotes and snippets from other writers, musicians, films, philosophers, etc. That, apparently, was the whole point: we live in an age of stealing from others, where text belongs to no-one, where - and reflected in the manner that the book was written - everything is derivatory and imbibed from elsewhere. I started reading with enormous excitement and ended in blanket despair. 

It is however extremely difficult to know where to go to create something genuinely new and of our time. 

It&#039;s the mind at work: our thinking is under siege; almost paralysed by the weight of the past. We no longer stand on the shoulders of giants; we are crushed by them. 

Even the idea of doing something new is a sullen one. More contrivance. 

We live in a bubbling farrago of dull ideas, yet are told that as a society we are more creative, exciting, and imaginative than in times past. I don&#039;t see it. The decadence you speak of is wholly reflective of our present cultural state - and even decadence now has not the allure it once had. 

Consciousness is a play - trapped in a theatre - and left to play out as a tragedy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, I totally agree. Yesterday I unexpectedly picked up a copy of Reality Hunger by David Shields, a book published last month. The laudatory comments from other artists and authors were quite unlike anything I&#8217;d ever read for a book. It seemed, standing in the bookshop, that this was the best thing to be written in ages. I bought it and went home to read. It turned out that nearly the whole book was a collection of cleverly (actually, not that cleverly) disguised quotes and snippets from other writers, musicians, films, philosophers, etc. That, apparently, was the whole point: we live in an age of stealing from others, where text belongs to no-one, where &#8211; and reflected in the manner that the book was written &#8211; everything is derivatory and imbibed from elsewhere. I started reading with enormous excitement and ended in blanket despair. </p>
<p>It is however extremely difficult to know where to go to create something genuinely new and of our time. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the mind at work: our thinking is under siege; almost paralysed by the weight of the past. We no longer stand on the shoulders of giants; we are crushed by them. </p>
<p>Even the idea of doing something new is a sullen one. More contrivance. </p>
<p>We live in a bubbling farrago of dull ideas, yet are told that as a society we are more creative, exciting, and imaginative than in times past. I don&#8217;t see it. The decadence you speak of is wholly reflective of our present cultural state &#8211; and even decadence now has not the allure it once had. </p>
<p>Consciousness is a play &#8211; trapped in a theatre &#8211; and left to play out as a tragedy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Tents pitched, fires lit: basecamp by Nick Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.dark-mountain.net/wordpress/2010/02/19/tents-pitched-fires-lit-basecamp/comment-page-1/#comment-1856</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dark-mountain.net/?p=628#comment-1856</guid>
		<description>Great news. I&#039;m delighted that base camp has been reached. I&#039;m really excited to see what follows as we strike further into the unknown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great news. I&#8217;m delighted that base camp has been reached. I&#8217;m really excited to see what follows as we strike further into the unknown.</p>
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